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Just to confirm the problems with Pulse: we tried to install ME 6.5 using Pulse on 64 bits Debian Lenny and Ubuntu 8.04. We could not get it to work. Using the archived update site worked though, so in case you might consider removing this too, please don’t 😉
Arjan,
Thanks for the heads up. The Update Site isn’t going anywhere, and we haven’t built a 64-bit Pulse installer because MyEclipse isn’t support in a native 64-bit environment yet (you have to use the 32-bit install).I’ll bring this up to the Pulse team though, that we could build a 64-bit installer that installed the 32-bit version.
Here’s a novel concept: Instead of “weening” your customers off of features they seem to like and appreciate (how Microsoft of you), why don’t you try to meet their needs? After my experience with Pulse2 (1st install didn’t work and gave me no options to reconfigure / fix), next six attempts failed, last attempt installed with the same results when launching Pulse Explorer as the first – and yes; I deleted all Pulse-related files in my home dir / install dirs), this will be my last MyEclipse. Netbeans is better integrated, easier to install, and is catching up fast on features.
Sorry but this is proving to be a real struggle – work system is linux (Redhat Enterprise workstation) behind a firewall requiring authentication. Pulse does not appear to work in these circumstances – get http timeout exceptions in the log; I’ve not found anyway to configure the proxy authentication info into Pulse.
I tried the archived site approach but didn’t appreciate the need for a clean 3.3 eclipse – so it’s trashed my current installation.
In addition our link is very slow so repeated large downloads are completely impractical. So for now it’s back to my saved copies of the 6 release.
Sigh
Duane,
We are sorry to loose you, but understand that you have to choose whatever tool helps you be most productive. We were trying to simplify the process and looked at what the easiest install experiences were for our users:
* All in One installer
* Archived Update
* Pulse (NEW)and just tried to focus on those. We realize that not one will work for everyone, that’s why we’ve provided the mix. It looks like in your particular use-case though that none of those 3 methods worked for you; besides Pulse, could you share with me what was wrong with the All in One install or the Archived Update site? If we are missing a very obvious use-case here in our coverage I can certainly bring that to the attention of the product team.
ahado,
Authenticated environments is an important target for us to nail as a lot of our enterprise customers *are* in such environments. I’m sorry to hear that your experience was poor… did you try right-clicking on the explorer tree, going to Preferences, and entering in our proxy authentication information? I can understand if you are “sick of testing stuff” if you don’t want to try that, I just wanted to see where we are still falling short and may need to add to test cases.Also with regards to the archived update site, it doesn’t necessarily *require* a clean Eclipse ‘Classic’ install, it’s just a *really really really* good idea given how big MyEclipse is and how many other plugins it’s built ontop of (to avoid colliding with existing installed plugins)… but this is nothing new, this has been the case since MyEclipse 3.0 and having the Plugin installer or Manual install available wouldn’t change this requirement/suggestion/good-idea, it’s all the same plugins getting installed into the same base Eclipse install anyway… so I’m not sure why the archived update site didn’t work for you here as opposed to some other install method?
Riyad – the Pulse problem with the firewall meant that it wouldn’t launch. It appears to get a timeout testing to see if it can access the Pulse site. The small installing dialog appears, then disappears. My diagnosis is based on what I found in the log:
com.oaklandsw.http.HttpTimeoutException
at com.oaklandsw.http.v.k(v.java:811)
at com.oaklandsw.http.v.c(v.java:846)
at com.oaklandsw.http.v.b(v.java:791)
at com.oaklandsw.http.HttpURLConnection.a(HttpURLConnection.java:1714)
at com.oaklandsw.http.jb.a(jb.java:2703)
at com.oaklandsw.http.HttpURLConnection.connect(HttpURLConnection.java:1606)
at com.genuitec.pulse2.common.http.PulseCommunications.checkPulseSiteAccessible(Unknown Source)WRT the clean Eclipse – I do understand this issue, which is essentially what Pulse is intended to address of course! I wanted 6.5 for the maven stuff but I’ve had 2 days of fighting it to get a working system – which isn’t v popular. I’ve finally got it working by installing a clean 3.3.2 Eclipse and then using the archive site locally to get MyEclipse in. Still took a further 1/2 day to get other required plugins back in and restore various configuration details.
I am not sure what went wrong with the archive site approach 1st time round. I’d got a 3.3.1 eclipse with 6.01 myeclipse + a few other plugins. The upgrade produced about a dozen conflicts and I just disabled the older versions in the eclipse location. On restart MyEclipse was visible in the ide, top level menu and package explorer context menu, but most of the capabilities were lost – spring editors not accessible etc.
Ahado
Making us use PULSE, when it is clearly not ready for mainstream use, is a very bad mistake. I can agree that having a single, consolidated download and install method is a good idea. Well, I can agree reluctantly. Mostly, as a Linux developer, I prefer to decide for myself how, what and where things are installed. Pulse looks and feels far too much like Vista and its prescriptive way of doing things.
But that apart, what is unacceptable is taking away the old manual method of installing before Pulse is fully debugged. I have tried (how I have tried) installing, deinstalling, trying again, repeat until you reach madness. Then I tried adding some of my favorite plugins. Oh dear – Log4E is not complex, but it destroys Pulse quite successfully.
I have paid good money for MyEclipse over a number of years. I signed up for a tool that made my more productive. One that allowed met to concentrate on what I was developing without having to worry about a lot of the repetitive java junk. Pulse has changed that – I am now being made less productive.
In fact, my latest development has stalled. Do I perseve with ME on Pulse? Go back to a previous version (I really, really regret upgrading to the latest ME now)? Do I move to Ganeymede and do with out ME? Do I switch to NetBeans? Will Genuitec abandon Pulse and thus make my attempts to get it working a waste of time (please, pretty please, re-think this prescriptive attitude before its too late).
What I really don’t like is that we who have paid for MyEclipse are really being used as beta testers for Pulse.
That is not what I signed up for at all.
Adrian
Adrian,
Pulse is provided as a 3rd install option… we still provide the All in One installer as we have always done as well as the Archived Update Site; can you explain why these methods didn’t work for you? I understand that you had trouble with Pulse in the past, but we still provide 2 other completely different install methods for you to use for MyEclipse to help folks that have different environment needs.
As for Pulse not being ready for Prime Time I have to completely and whole-heartedly disagree with that comment. 95% of failures launching a profile have to do with a corrupted update site from the plugin provider or an invalid plugin manifest that is unresolvable (impossible to resolve); in the past we have done a poor job of communicating this to users so it’s resulted in a “Cannot launch Profile” popup that clearly makes it look like a Pulse issue, where as in reality you wouldn’t be able to resolve the install anyway even with a basic Eclipse install.
We have made *huge* strides to correct these issues in 2.2 that solved almost 80% of the failures right away and now in 2.2.2 (to be released today) we have included a “Run as-is” option that will try and put the profile into a runnable state if some dependency cannot be resolved for it; instead of completely failing when the dependency cannot be found.
We already have quite a few enterprise customers both deploying large dev teams with Pulse as well as a few deploying products with Pulse to customers.
We realize there are still some more esoteric network environments that can trip up the proxy/firewall detection code and auto-routing over port 80, but for *most* people it works “as advertised”; we track failures diligently to resolve them immediately when they occur and overall are generally not-sleeping to make this technology be a true godsend for the folks using it and for folks that can benefit from it.
I understand that purpose of the Microsoft-esque references, of tossing a Beta product out there and saying “Here, suck on this” to your users, but that is not something we have ever done or will ever do. We are really working hard for you guys to give you a good solution, but we aren’t stuffing it down anyone’s throat, you have a lot of options when it comes to installing MyEclipse, and using Pulse can be totally free… forever.
I hope I’ve addressed any concerns here and communicated the strategy in a more transparent fashion… maybe that’s fundamentally the problem, that we have been too heads down in communicating what we are working on and it has made us seem “Microsofty”? If it has, I appologize… anytime you guys have questions about this stuff, complaints, etc. just post it or PM me and I’ll be happy to respond. We don’t want any customers “in the dark” on what we are doing, we *need* you guys to be happy, otherwise we go out of business and I’ll sit at home and watch soap-operas all day 😉
Dear Rkalla,
I have to disagree that this is mainstream. I have had endless problems trying (and failing) to get a Pulse install on a Linux 64 bit system, using the 64bit JVM I need for my project, plus other third party Eclipse plugins. I tried again yesterday. It took four attempts to get just the Pulse installer to work. I had to completely remove Pulse and all references to it, and just keep trying until I got an install to work. Then you insist, absolutely insist, on downloading JVM V1.5.0-11. Despite the fact I already have (and want to use) JVM 1.6. This is clearly a Pulse issue. MyEclipse never used to make these sort of demands.
Don’t get me wrong – I know why you are doing this. I understand. I like MyEclipse. I love the Matisse Editor. But think through this: I had so many problems and became so unproductive I downloaded NetBeans to try that. I have paid for ME-Pro but I still tried NetBeans. OK, so I moved back because of the slow performance – I prefer and know Eclipse. But if this is what you are doing to people who have been with you for some time, I would suggest you have something wrong.
Oh, and I appreciate that others may be using it successfully, but thats of little comfort to me when I can’t use my IDE. Almost as useless as knowing how many unused CPU seconds I had yesterday!
By the way – has ANYONE managed to get Log4E installed on a Pulse system? I have tried and failed so many times I have given up for the time being. A (paid for) simple but useful productivity aid that I can’t use.
My environment, other than being on the latest kernel builds, Java releases, is not esoteric. Its fairly standard in fact, with a good but simple firewall and no restrictions on any outbound ports and no proxies.
Oh – my the way – in the Pulse installer, it has an option to change the VM configuration. Does this do anything? I couldn’t see any changes it made, so I patched the startup manually. Strange that it doesn’t default to the Eclipse normal recommended VM parameters (even stranger that Eclipse don’t code these as standard!).
Adrian (a fan, despite being a little jaded at the present)
Then you insist, absolutely insist, on downloading JVM V1.5.0-11. Despite the fact I already have (and want to use) JVM 1.6. This is clearly a Pulse issue. MyEclipse never used to make these sort of demands.
Actually it has for quite a few years now and is complete intentional. 1.5.0_11 has always been our certified JRE because of some underlying Swing-rendering changes that went into 1.5.0_12 and 1.6.0 and later that cause MyEclipse to lockup when working with the Swing-based tools… it’s a nasty bug, so we have to lock it down to avoid conflicts. Some folks that never make use of the Swing-based tooling have been OK with certain JREs up to 1.6.0_03, but it seems in _04 something else changed that is causing lockups even with the platform code.
Oh, and I appreciate that others may be using it successfully, but thats of little comfort to me when I can’t use my IDE. Almost as useless as knowing how many unused CPU seconds I had yesterday!
Adrian, we appreciate the feedback but I’m having a really hard time understanding ultimately what your suggestion for us is here. We have always provided alternative installation methods as I pointed out and continue to do so, we don’t want to lock *anyone* into Pulse.
Please clarify what it is that you want us to do and I’ll see if I can get some work done to address that concern.
That being said, if this is more of a Pulse rant instead, that I can understand and empathize with. Anytime software doesn’t do what you think it should
Lastly, with regards to Log4E, I didn’t have any problem adding the update site and provisioning this… what kind of errors or issues are you seeing? It could be numerous reasons it’s not provisioning.
Riyad,
Yes – It is Pulse I don’t like. And this is why: I am trying to follow:
http://www.jroller.com/pulse/entry/local_customizations_with_pulseHelp -> Software Updates -> Add and Remove Software
and immediately I get:
An unexpected error occurred loading the software catalog.
Reason: unable to load catalog
Unable to load catalog
Error running procedure for [class com.genuitec.pulse2.model.RealmBlueprint-loadBlueprint]No updates for you, Adrian! This has happened EVERY time I used the Pulse install. This is on Linux 2.6.25-19, in 64 bit mode, using
java version “1.6.0_06”
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_06-b02)
Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 10.0-b22, mixed mode)I am using 1.6 because I am also using Java3D and found it much better under 1.6. So I am caught between two problems here!
So back to MyEclipse.com and go to Download. Accept the license, and go to the offline install of MyEclipse. Sigh, and I had such high hopes for Pulse.
Thanks for your patience Riyad. I will watch this with interest and see if things stabalise. Or if you want me to test and run some diagnostics my end, PM me. Happy to help out because I genuinely support what you are trying to do and fully understand your reasons. So if I can assist, let me know.
Adrian
Adrian,
Thank you for the report, I wonder if this is a snaffu in the 64-bit build; I just filed a bug for the Pulse team to look into what could be going on. We will destroy this bug! 🙂I’d like to provide my experience with Pulse as feedback on this one. My memory is growing a touch fuzzy when it comes to the fine-grained details, but I believe this is a fairly accurate recount of the events as they occurred…
When I went to upgrade from 6.0.1 to 6.5.0 I found, as did others, that the download-able installer I was used to for my platform (OS X) was gone. I went searching for the online 6.5.0 update site. Couldn’t find one. Noticed the archived update site, but at 1/2GB-ish it seemed I was missing something. I made a guess that this Pulse thing was the *new* way of doing things, and it was how I was supposed to upgrade.
I downloaded it, and found that it wasn’t going to upgrade my existing installation. I had to start from scratch!? Okay, maybe this is better. Maybe it’s going to help keep all the dependency issues in line. I’ll give it a shot. I have to register. What?! Why? I have to pay, haven’t I already paid my yearly subscription?! (Time and wet-ware-cycles are rapidly a wasting…) Oh wait, it seems there is a free route. Okay fine…
After an hour of letting it run in the background it still hadn’t finished all its downloading. This is the point where I’m starting to feel Pulse is being forced onto me before it’s ready. Time to rebel and download the archived update site. It takes just under 30 minutes. Not great, but much better than the Pulse situation.
I go to upgrade my 6.0.1 install. Seems to go okay, but on restart MyEclipse crashes on startup. Tried starting with -clean, but no help. I decide it really is time for a complete re-install. This goes off without a hitch, and MyEclipse is installed as a true extension to my core Eclipse install. No extra directory in my Applications folder. No special splash screen. Just makes my base Eclipse install better. It may be only an aesthetic difference, but for some reason it just feels better than the “All your base are belong to us” feeling I got from from Pulse.
My conclusions:
1) The disappearance of the installers for platforms other than Windows, the then absence of a 6.5.x online update site, and the fact that Pulse wouldn’t update my existing Eclipse install all combined to create the feeling that Pulse was being, as it was put earlier, “jammed down my throat”.
2) I’m glad to hear the archived update site will at least continue to be available.
3) The transition cost me a lot of time that I didn’t have to waste, and had no upside for me.
4) Pulse seems like an architecture astronaut brain-child if I’ve ever seen one. Sure the Eclipse Update Manager leaves a bit to be desired. It’s sluggish and not very good at telling you what it’s up to at any given moment, and it doesn’t do enough to defend you against invalid configurations. Pulse seems like an attempt to correct (and monetize) these shortcomings, but by subverting the Eclipse Update Manager instead of improving it. In my opinion this does a disservice to MyEclipse customers and the Eclipse community as a whole.
Regards,
Ian
Noticed the archived update site, but at 1/2GB-ish it seemed I was missing something.
IIRC it’s 412mb or so… definitely not light, but there’s a lot of good stuff in there (and all the optional components as well).
I had to start from scratch!?
Pulse is a general software provisioning solution, one of the many things in it’s catalog is MyEclipse, it maintains it’s own, completely managed cache of all the software it installs and looks after. We haven’t included the ability for it to “digest” existing installs yet off your computer, but that is something we want to do down the road. So yes, it’s a completely separate install.
I have to register. What?! Why?
Pulse is a completely separate service, and registration is optional. If you use the Pulse-optimized installer for MyEclipse it does an anonymous install of MyEclipse, you never need to register. Registration is only necessary when you want to modify your software profiles and add to them, we *have* to have an account to associate those changes with (and all we ask for is an email address so you can get your activation email and a display name, nothing else).
But if you don’t want to modify the profile at all, just use the giant “Anonymous” login button.
After an hour of letting it run in the background it still hadn’t finished all its downloading.
Ugg… was the progress bar stopped that entire time? Do you recall what it was doing? There is a small 500k or so download that pre-caches the catalog before the interface pops up so working with software profiles is fast, but that’s it… unless it was downloading a self-update, but even then it’s only a few MB. If that locks up again, let me know what kind of network setup you are behind (proxy, etc.) and maybe I can help.
All your base are belong to us
Well it is a software provisioning solution, all your base *has* to belong to it otherwise it cannot manage and provision that software correctly. This is sort of a paradigm shift for some folks that like to hand-manage their own stuff; in those cases that’s why we still provide the alternative download solutions.
1) The disappearance of the installers for platforms other than Windows, the then absence of a 6.5.x online update site, and the fact that Pulse wouldn’t update my existing Eclipse install all combined to create the feeling that Pulse was being, as it was put earlier, “jammed down my throat”.
The “plugin installers” for Mac and Linux were only unzipping the manual install into a specific directory then adding /links files to your existing install, that’s why we went the Archived Update Site route. That and we went to a new software installation package that was Windows only because we got so many complaints about the InstallAnywhere installer software we *were* using.
We actually were trying to make things easier. In our weekly meeting I’ll bring up that people are requesting plugin installers back for the other platforms and see what management thinks (we can look at the download numbers in the past for how popular they really were, because it’s time consuming to build and QA those installers it’s not a light decision to be made).
4) Pulse seems like an architecture astronaut brain-child if I’ve ever seen one. Sure the Eclipse Update Manager leaves a bit to be desired. It’s sluggish and not very good at telling you what it’s up to at any given moment, and it doesn’t do enough to defend you against invalid configurations. Pulse seems like an attempt to correct (and monetize) these shortcomings, but by subverting the Eclipse Update Manager instead of improving it. In my opinion this does a disservice to MyEclipse customers and the Eclipse community as a whole.
Respectfully and completely disagree with the assessment that it does a *disservice*. The base service of Pulse that is *Free* is vastly superior to anything the update manager has ever done or could ever do. Right now Pulse is provisioning Eclipse-based technology stacks across product boundaries but it won’t stop there. This is not something the Update Manager will ever do and we are providing it all for free (not to mention team-sharing, team software provisioning, profile management, etc.)
The features we *do* charge for (the workspace provisioning piece) was really expensive to develop, and I think we’ve cut a very fair line in the sand where we say “this stuff over here is free” and “this stuff costs $6/mo”. I think most people would expect companies to do the anonymous provisioning piece free and charge for the rest, but we took it one step further and allowed arbitrary profile management and sharing for free, and charged for the more advanced stuff.
Now given that, I’ll agree that your experience was bumpy and a few unexpected things happened a long the way that just pissed you off (didn’t recognize your existing install), which certainly makes the whole thing seem crappier than it is. That’s our fault for not communicating those things clearly in the Pulse interface or material (or possibly not offering the features to suck in other installs).
It’s a realtively new product and we have a long way to go with it, but I think for the folks that are using it and liking it, they really see the potential there and we are going to keep a lot of that kick ass functionality free forever with no shenanigans applied. We hope that in a few months maybe you try it again and have a much better experience, I know there is a lot on our TODO list for Pulse to keep improving it going forward.
Either way you go on Pulse, we surely do appreciate you being a MyEclipse customer and are working hard on 7.0 to make sure our core user base stays very happy.
Lastly, thanks for taking the time to provide such detailed feedback, not many users do take the time to write it all out and it’s really important we know about pain-points along the way so we can correct them.
